So, I knew that this post about sexy secretaries would generate some lively discussion, but things got positively HEATED! Reading over everyone’s passionate, concerned, angry, and disgusted comments made me realize a few things:
- This term means very different things to different people. Perhaps I should have been more clear about what I meant by “sexy secretary,” but since the question had come from a reader, I intentionally left it a bit more open. And while doing that meant a deeper, broader discussion was generated, I hope it didn’t cause too much frustration and confusion.
- Many of you have firsthand experience with harassment and discrimination, especially as pertains to clothing and style. I guess that shouldn’t have shocked me, but it certainly angered me.
- Several commentors pointed out that the quasi-archetypes of “sexy secretary,” “sexy nurse,” and “sexy librarian” are demeaning and I completely agree. No woman benefits from those characters and especially after engaging in this discussion, I’m pretty ooked out by these terms.
Now, to say what I left unsaid the first time around: When I think of a “sexy secretary” look, I think of a retro-influenced feminine work look. It involves opaque blouses, fitted-but-not-skintight pencil skirts, fishnets, pumps, cardigans, sheath dresses. Like this, this, and this. And, now that I’ve written that out and chosen some personal examples, I realize there’s nothing overtly sexy about ANY of it … with the possible exception of the fishnets. For me, these looks have inherent retro sass and are a bit more ladylike than modern pants-based officewear. That’s their appeal – the femininity and funk, not any associated ideas about the role of secretaries in bygone days. Vanda, who asked the original question, said:
When Sally and other bloggers showed styles similar to what I wear and then call it ‘sexy secretary’ it made me question how I’m being perceived at work.
And I realize now that I might’ve been calling my looks something that they are NOT. At least not to most observers. And several of you said as much.
But even if my personal version of the sexy secretary doesn’t read as sexy to most people, it feels sexy to me and that’s the point. In my opinion, a smidgen of sexy in daily wear or workwear is a good thing. To me, this term is vastly different than sensual, flirtatious, slutty, desperate, exhibitionistic, and many of the other behaviors and ideas that can hitchhike on concepts of sexiness. I’m comfortable sporting a little of my personal brand of sexy at all times, including at work, for these reasons:
- For me, it means always creating a balance. As a girl with very small breasts, I can wear low-cut tops without attracting much interest. But I ALWAYS put a scarf or statement necklace in that space. I have no problem wearing a miniskirt, either on a Friday or during the week with some tights. But I ALWAYS balance it with lots of coverage and modesty elsewhere.
- For me, there is really no danger of harassment. I am extremely fortunate in this, I realize. The men and women that I work with look on my ensembles with affection and curiosity, and I know that I’m safe both from unwelcome overtures and disciplinary reprimands.
- For me, feeling sexy is part of feeling confident and strong and womanly and myself. It’s more about being aware of my body – in addition to my thoughts and emotions – than it is about attraction or desire. And even if I were in a work environment where harassment or discrimination were potential threats, I’d probably find a subtle way to work sexiness and body awareness into my looks. I’d do it with chain drop earrings that brushed my shoulders or beautifully manicured nails. I’d do it with loads of conservative layers but a slippery silk cami underneath. I’d do it in ways that had nothing to do with skin exposure or tightness, and everything to do with texture and feel. In this context, my sexy isn’t about anyone but me, and I wouldn’t want to give it up.
Commenters mentioned things like sheerness, skin-tight clothing, and super-high heels. And although it may cause an uproar, I’m going to say that a single one of these things worn in conjunction with extremely conservative items can be work appropriate. You’re a smart, educated, worldly bunch. I assume when I say, “sheerness is OK for work” you’re not going to assume I mean, “a completely translucent blouse worn with a bright red lace bra is OK for work.” If you’ve got a translucent garment and an office environment where you feel comfortable being a bit experimental, pair it with lots of conservative opaques, layers, chunky shoes, a big scarf. Make it a single element in a complex ensemble, and it becomes fashion not flirtation. Just never show anyone at work even the smallest peek of your lingerie.
Speaking of which, there are a few overtly sexy things I think just about every working woman should avoid, and I’m curious to hear if you agree:
- Cleavage
- Halter tops
- Exposed midriffs
- Anything printed with sexually charged words or slogans (“JUICY” on your sweatpants butt, for instance)
- Truly translucent or transparent items
- Pale shirts with dark bras beneath
- Exposed underwear of any kind
- Exposed tops of thigh-high stockings or garters
- Clothing so tight it pulls
I do NOT condone wearing shapeless, unflattering garments to work. I do NOT condone making yourself feel sexless and miserable when you can sneak your own brand of sexy in subtly, or even invisibly. But I also don’t condone dressing provocatively at the office. As you’ve all pointed out, it puts you at risk for discrimination and harassment. It broadcasts messages about your priorities and choices. And it’s just plain bad form.
Now, let’s hear from you. What is inappropriate office wear in your opinion? (I realize you’re coming from every profession imaginable, but tell us about YOURS, specifically.) What makes you uncomfortable when you see others wearing it? Why?
And more generally, what does “sexy” mean to you? What’s your version of “dressing sexy”? Is there a line between feminine and sexy?
Image courtesy Christine & Eric.
{ 55 comments… read them below or add one }
The fun continues! I should say that I was one of the ones who really didn't take issue with the term "sexy secretary" or the idea of bringing one's sexuality into the workplace (I mean, it's one of those things we carry around like intelligence, IMO.)
Of course, I agree with you completely – the definition of sexy and sexuality is in question here. For me, sexy is an attitude as much as anything (and I don't mean a louche, suggestive one). Clothes that fit beautifully – neither too loose nor too tight – that emphasize the beauty of the female form, is what I aim for.
I think the reason that the ss look is archetypal is that so many women look great in pencil skirts, nicely fitting sweaters and heels. It plays up all the lovely things: calves, shapely derrieres, the curve of shoulders, the height of the bust (optimally sheathed in a bra of the perfect size so that everything is contained).
The eye is drawn, not to one feature, but to the entire silhouette – one that says "confident woman". Back when the ss look first arrived, it was the look of emancipation. Women didn't have a lot of other opps to contribute in the workplace. I believe this is the first iteration of modern working wear. To the women of the day, it did proclaim power. That's what it does for me today.
When I was 11, I wore a brand new magenta bathing suit to the beach and my mother called me "nubile" in a sort of shocked and slightly condescending way. I had to look it up in the dictionary and felt very shameful when I read the definition.
Since then I've been hyper-attentive to avoid looking too sexy and it's something I struggle with on a daily basis. Problem is, with a chest on the larger size and curves to boot, it's very difficult to wear a a lot of styles without feeling like I look too sexy (if you define sexy as curvy and voluptuous). So I avoid curve hugging dresses (even plain sheaths), v-necks of any kind, and other slim fitting clothes when in a professional setting. But sometimes I feel like I go overboard and end up stifling my personal style as a result.
In a casual setting I have less of a problem embracing my curves. I'm not sure why I have such a hangup about them when dressing for a professional setting.
Maybe it's a fear of being taken less seriously in my male-dominated academic field if I look too sexy. Yes, actually, that's it. But does that really happen that often? And furthermore, if I dress to consciously avoid that behavior/judgement am I just playing into their (whoever they are) hands and undermining my own power/identity as a result? Such a tough issue….
I don't think I ever commented on the original post, but I agree that this all comes down to definitions. I've thought about this a bit in relation to the post on modesty I did a little while ago. I wouldn't call what you describe as sexy, but I agree with the sentiment. I don't really use the word sexy except in an ironic way, i.e. to describe something that is not sexy in the slightest.
I am also in no danger of harrassment at my work, which is hugely varied dress wise. We have our fair share of pencil-skirted sexy secretary types, but also lots of people wearing casual sacklike linen things. I don't think either of those groups are treated badly for it. It's about your work and your mind, at least i hope so.
I completely agree with K.Line that one's sexuality is something inherent about oneself, that is always there, and not something that needs to be either hidden or emphasised. My view on all these things is that almost anything is ok, if you're comfortable with wearing it. I've seen my senior senior boss handle a meeting of old pinstriped men who all disagreed with her while wearing a tiny miniskirt with absolute confidence.
Of your list of no-nos, most of these I agree with, but on aestetic grounds, rather than because they are too revealing. I see people wear light shirts with dark underwear at work all the time and I always think 'poor you, you didn't notice it was showing', never 'oh my god, how slutty'. Same for tight clothing. It's just bad taste generally, rather than anything work place related.
I agree with your list of office don'ts. Cleavage (I'm not talking about a hint, I'm talking exposed boob crack here), exposed underwear of any kind, exposed midsections, etc.
I think there are two different ways of dressing sexy: Dressing to flatter your body is SEXY. Having confidence about yourself is SEXY. Dressing overtly sexy, however, is something else. Usually overtly sexy includes things that you listed in the office don'ts.
I also relate the word 'sexy secretary/librarian/etc' in a positive way. I think of figure flattering and confidence, a balance of modesty and celebrating a woman's curves.
I LOVE your concept of balance. I think ANYWHERE you go (not just the office), you should dress in a balance. Even teenagers don't look good in a strapless minidress with nothing else to cover up IMO. Too much skin isn't appropriate anywhere- unless of course, you are a stripper or at a club looking to pick up someone…
How about going a level deeper and asking why being "sexy" need be necessary to a woman's self-expression or confidence? Do men need to feel "sexy" at work?
I don't think sex and work mix, unless it's actually relevant (like, if you're having an actual relationship with a person in some other department). Even if it IS relevant, this does not mean you have to express "sexy" to every person in your workplace, which is what you do if you include sexy details in your dressing.
I feel that our society has soaked us all (both men and women) in the dictate that a woman has to signal her sexuality in EVERYTHING she does in order to have any value. Even if it's only a small, private gesture – if she doesn't make one, she's somehow not "feminine" or whatever.
And I say, our sexual potential gets TOO MUCH cultural service, too much attention, too much emphasis. We can't escape it, it seems. It would be nice if we could move ON already from being tethered to sex, over and over and over again.
(In response to Tina…YES, it really does happen often. Men are saturated in media that encourages them to think of us in only sexual ways and it's more of an effort for them NOT to. I don't think avoiding being provocative is playing into anything, and *I* personally feel that we need to own our power in ways OTHER than sexual ones, we've been limited to that for far too long.)
Someone: Overall, I agree that women's sexuality, especially as it ties to power and femininity, is overemphasized. And I cannot speak for anyone else, and I'm not trying to, but this is my choice. I spent years wearing simple slacks and sweaters to work and felt just fine. When I started wearing clothing that made me feel sexy, I felt better than fine. It's on that progression that I base my decisions.
I never said dressing sexy was a necessity, and I think many women are MUCH more comfortable avoiding any sexiness in the workplace. It's a personal choice.
Finally, in situations like this, where the push to express sexuality publicly is so prevalent, how can we tell what WE want from what we've been told to want? I feel like I've made this choice myself, but I also acknowledge that there are powerful societal forces at play and I may be unduly influenced by them. How do I know who's calling the shots? And does it matter, if the net result is that I feel how I want to feel? And that I DON'T feel manipulated or forced?
A few years back I worked in an extremely corporate environ. There was a very attractive younger woman that worked there that dressed, in some people's opinions, provocatively.
In my observation she just looked young and still finding her "everything." Her style was generally: big hair, tight pants, high heels, a good amount of makeup. What she didn't wear was: tight sweaters, low cut anything, short skirts.
Some women on the floor took umbrage with her look and went to her boss with complaints. She was asked to "tone it down."
She came to me for advice because, as she saw it, I dressed "sassy" and why wasn't I criticized?
My look was generally: shorter skirts, tights, flats, fitted turtlenecks or slim-fit pants with blouses and heels. Simpler hair and simpler makeup perhaps.
It always puzzled me why she was reprimanded for her dress. I, personally, never thought of it as inappropriate, she was young and liked big hair and makeup, but wrong?
Perception. It was perception. She was seen one way and me, as a woman about 15 years older, wasn't seen in that light.
As Sal has said, life isn't fair and perception is the same way perhaps.
As another commenter pointed out on the other post, some people will see a sassily-belted sack as provocative.
Perception.
I am rambling and will be thinking about this topic for quite a while. It's interesting how so many of us feel it really is our responsibility to know how everyone is going to perceive us.
While tube tops and micros may totally give a message, why does not ignoring our femininity speak to flaunting?
Thinking! Thanks Sal, as always.
Sally – I agree, it is a fraught playing field. I own some 4" heels and so on, although I wouldn't wear them to *work.* I don't dress to hide myself, but neither do I make an effort to display, but do my best to work professionally with the facts, like my 34F chest that kind of can't be escaped.
We all need to wear something, so it may as well please ourselves in some way, and it is true that we feel rewarded when we achieve something society calls achievement. My big problem is that it always seems that sexual display is a component of everything women are encouraged to achieve.
I don't see anything wrong with pleasing yourself in a way that you like, at all. And there may not BE an answer at this point to how to work within a value system where "sexy" is always on our to-do list where men appear to have a choice to ignore that item and still be valued.
Sal – I should add that I acknowledge that *you're* not saying that being sexy is strictly necessary, but our society does seem to harangue us continually that it is. And it's a Catch-22 of course, since we are all being judged the moment we step over someone else's line of being TOO compliant with the dictate. Basically we are damned if we do and damned if we don't, which for women hasn't changed in millenia.
And I wonder what, if anything, we can do about it.
Seems like some people got really fussed about semantics. I think "sexy secretary" has been used for several years for a certain type of feminine but covered up look, which is what you described. Anyone who picked up a fashion magazine would know it.
I used to be uptight about semantics but now I don't give a rat's ass.
Someone: Too right, you. If you don't dress a little bit sexy/feminine, you're not trying hard enough. If you dress TOO sexy/feminine, you're a slut. Striking a careful balance is down to each woman's choices, and it can be challenging to stay true to your own style while still keeping those unspoken requirements in mind.
Hmmm, I feel ANOTHER post coming on! Thanks for probing this difficult part of the "sexy in the workplace" issue.
Tina Z: I just have to say that it broke my heart to read that your mom unknowingly made you self-conscious about dressing or appearing sexy in public. It sounds like you've worked hard to make personal peace with it, but still. Ow.
I completely agree with you on this one. It's much more about how we feel in what we're wearing than it is about how we're perceived. We can feel confident and sexy in what we wear to work without becoming a stereotype. As you said, it's about balance.
To me, large part of feeling confident is being proud of how I present myself. And so, dressing in any way that masks my feminine shape feels like it detracts from who I am. But, I'm also not sending an invitation, so it's all about balance, as many have already pointed out.
If I'm having a bad day, and I go to the restroom and find a version of the beautiful, strong woman that I am looking back at me from the mirror, I'm more likely to pick myself up and power through than if I found a dull, shapeless me looking back.
birdonyourshirt.blogspot.com
Funny you would bring this up; I just got swatted down at my workplace the other day for dressing in a manner that made two female colleages "uncomfortable" (they did not specify exactly what it was that made them uncomfortable). My outfit? Several layered sweaters and a scarf (I was ill and cold), leggings with a short skirt over top for modesty (as opposed to wearing the leggings alone, which many people do, including students and staff at my school) and high heel ankle boots.
My boss told me she didn't really see a problem with my outfit, that she liked the way I dress, and to pretty much ignore it. Nonetheless, I felt harassed by these women (I have a pretty good idea who they are). They're trying to impose their idea of what is correct on me, and I resent it.
I work in a creative profession (I'm an art teacher), in a place where people often come to work in jeans and tees…why the heck should I have to tone down my high heels when most of my colleagues (including the ones that made the complaint) look like they just crawled out of bed? Mom jeans, oversized sweatshirts, orthopedic shoes and fanny packs are okay…but leggings and ankle boots are not? Give me a break!
I refuse to bend on this issue; perhaps if my colleagues actually spent some time on their own appearance I might listen to them. However, they feel that the only way for women to be taken seriously is to dress in huge, androgynous, sex-appeal-killing, frumpy clothing.
Yeesh.
Some people are just sexy; while certain standards of dress are definitely applicable (for modesty, safety, comfort, etc.) I don't think that we can (or should) ban anything remotely sexy in the workplace. Sexy happens when you least expect it, and is a highly subjective concept!
ha, ha it all depends on what your "work place" is. If you work in a strip joint, topless bar, a vegas showroom or brothel I guess the no-no you listed would be more then appropriate. LOL
I consider myself both fashionable and professional. I wear short skirts, translucent tops, and peeks of lace to work. But, I also teach middle school, so I am overtly aware of finding the balance between dressing attractively and dressing sexy. I always keep the notion that I am a role model in mind. If I would be uncomfortable with one of my students wearing something then I certainly shouldn't wear it either.
I have to agree with Deborah on perception, as this is always something I think about when deciding how to dress, especially for work.
To be specific, I balance how I want to be perceived with how I think others perceive me automatically based on my physical features. I look a lot younger than I actually am but I need to be taken seriously by my clients at work. Therefore, I often dress more conservatively and authoritatively than my older colleagues (all female).
But I enjoy fashion and color and figure-flattering clothing and red patent leather shoes! And I don't deny myself those things in my work wardrobe. If I'm going to be wearing this stuff for 40 hours a week, I want to feel good and feel like myself.
So for me it's about striking a balance while being aware of how others will respond to my looks.
Your list is completely on-target, Sal. My one question would be about a bit of camisole lace peeking out the top of a blouse, but camis are almost not regarded as lingerie anymore.
I have a colleague who "role plays" in her teaching attire, and when I see her in a black leather mini skirt, sheer black stockings, black high-heeled boots, and tucked-in bust-enhancing blouse, I cringe. That she's over 40 is especially cringe-inducing. Same colleague in an above-the-knee pencil skirt, subtle shell, heels, fitted cardigan? Pretty fine.
I think you're right that it's the overall ensemble. Any one of K.'s more strumpety pieces would be fine on its own, in a more conservative ensemble. It's the combination that kills it.
Interesting conversation.
Another awesome dialogue started by Sal.
I also agree that "sexy" is a relative and contextual term. I had a roommate once say "you dress sexy" even though I obsessively cover my upper body, but wear shorter skirts and tights. I like the story that Karenina told about her coworkers who found her outfits to be "too much," when in fact she had basically every inch of her body covered (and in probably less form fitting ways then others). I also like the comments from the self-identified curvy gals (especially those who work in a corporate setting).
I work/live in NYC so you have to up your game fashion wise here. At our work place, most women are dressed very well, so I don't have to worry about people complaining when I dress up a bit. Also, I'm in higher ed and the possibilities for harassment mostly come from students, and I think it's a learning moment, to clearly communicate that a woman can be feminine, dressed in a flattering way, and it is still not OK to be inappropriate. I agree with Sal- it's all about the balance!
I think there should be a clear distinction: sexy (as a confident, body-conscious and flattering) versus overly sexualized (Sal's list of things are probably only OK in very casual, youth oriented settings, like the beach or a party.
Someone – just want to comment, I used to work in a jewelry store (a
very big jewelry store in a very big mall) – and knowing that most of
the store's customers were men buying for women, the girls working
there had to walk a fine, fine line between appropriate and sexy. You
look attractive – maybe more sexy than professional – and you get more
sales. you get more sales, you get to keep your job.
I now work as a geology field tech where sexy just does not apply, and
would even get in my way (pencil skirts typically aren't great for
working in subzero temps, and they also don't look so great with mud
and muck caked on..) and oh man, you shoulda seen my summer work
outfit – I'm super sensitive to the sun so in the middle of July it
was a HUGE brim hat, long sleeve SPF 50 shirt, even sun protective
gloves, jeans and hiking boots! Never felt less sexy in my LIFE. And
ya know, it actually made me feel slighly less confident in the work I
was doing in a way – cause when you look good, you feel good, and it
can actually be empowering, even if it has nothing to do with what
you're doing.
So in the end, I agree with Sal – incorporating your own brand of sexy
in your every day and even work wear is important for confidence and
giving yourself a little boost. Everything I wear in the field has to
be superfunction down to the last layer, so now I'm trying to make up
for it when I go to class or work in the lab so that I can at least
have a little spark when I'm not working outside
I work in a church, so the stereotype of "sexy pastor" is not as common as "sexy secretary," but the dual need to approach a traditionally-male-dominated job while affirming your sex/gender is one that many female pastors struggle with.
BeautyTipsForMinisters.com has been a good starting point for me in figuring out how to dress conservatively AND fashionably, but sometimes I long for the freedom to wear all of the styles featured on the Already Pretty blog!
I think that your context should be the first consideration, and even if your environment is different from mine, I would probably still err on the side of modesty, just to avoid any unwanted advances and to assert your professionalism.
Sal, I agree with your list of work inapropriate clothing. All I can think of is that scene in Bridget Jones' Diary where she wore that see through blouse to work! I cringed for her (I'm pretty sure it was meant to be an "awkward Bridget moment" right?)
As someone said above, it's all about perception.
Kaerena: I feel especially bad for you. As lonmg as you weren't dressing like a lady-of-the-evening I'm not sure why what you wear is any of their business. Unfortunatly women seem to be the first to try and cut each other down. Women should be supporting each other!
And one more thing:
Sexual harassment is never acceptable and is never the fault of the victim. I worry that some of our comments on these posts imply that women (through dress, behavior, etc) control the actions of the men around them. The greater issue is how men can control their own actions.
[exit soapbox]
Ekatherina – Yeah, I am aware that sex sells. And that has always bothered me. In my opinion we need to be valued for our other qualities, and if we keep putting ourselves in the same old position, we won't make progress.
Personally, I don't have to add anything "sexy" to a functional outfit to feel good, if it has other qualities I really like.
One of my points in this conversation is that I wish the question society keeps asking us weren't just "sexy: yes or no," because it frequently seems as if a woman's entire existence is reduced to answering it. I find that sadly limiting.
Nothing against Sal, her post just brings up my strong personal feelings about the limited ways our culture encourages women to express ourselves.
Karenina: CRIKEY. How can they reprimand you for dressing "wrong" when they couldn't even tell you what to change? What a load. I'm glad your boss supported you, and that you're not gonna cave. Until they can cite what you're doing that's "offensive" and why, they can't possibly expect you to change your behavior. And why should you?
peregrinaje: Indeed. Thank you for bringing that up.
Wow! What a hot topic!!! I agree with you, Sal, that a Sexy Secretary look is kind of retro like Mad Men style. The thing that makes it hot is how much is left to the imagination.
This kind of look now is more for the woman wearing it than for attracting men. That's my opinion anyway. We've come a very long way since my Mother's time. She was a "divorcee" (scandal) in the 1960's, working in male dominated fields and treated and paid like an inferior.
I believe the right amount of sexy in the workplace is a balancing act between sass and class. Still, in the immortal words of Rick Nelson, "You see, you can't please everyone so you gotta please yourself."
In the office I work in, the dress code is (as stated to us during training): Dress to impress, but don't dress to impress Paris Hilton.
I think the issue really is just with definitions of sexiness, and all those "hitch-hiking terms" you spoke of. A lot of people think that "sexy" and "slutty" are synonyms. And a lot of people think that, since sexy means slutty, sexy clothing is an invitation for advancement–and I don't mean a promotion.
But when I looked at the examples you gave, Sally, I didn't see ANYTHING that looked remotely like what I've always thought a "sexy secretary" look was. Honestly, all the images I had of this look were more given to a Halloween costume of a sexy secretary (see https://www.adultsfancydress.co.uk/ProdImages/SMI/61967_b.jpg). In all honesty, all three of your examples seemed way too cute, modest, and appropriate to fall under the term in the first place.
So, definition of terms, definitely a problem. That aside…to me, a few things are inappropriate at work (unless you happen to work at a water park). These include shorts, sweatpants, pajama pants, things that are ratty and/or falling apart, cleavage, exposed tummies, or casual shirts that show off lots of arm and chest and back, like tank tops. I deal with these limitations every day, and never have trouble with my clothes. I dress sexy, or funky, or relaxed at work, and still manage to stay within these guidelines.
But that's because I don't define "sexy" as something that's going to make every man in the room stare at me bug-eyed, although that's certainly one definition. There are just different levels of sexiness. I have a lime green skirt that I think of as my "flirty" skirt because it kind of sways when I walk. It's cute, and a little casual, but I still wear it to work–usually with leggings and a sweater or nice button-up top. Nobody looks askance at this because I'm completely covered up and appropriate, and yet I feel so cute and sexy all day long. So, I guess I define sexy in terms of what makes ME feel that way, not whether others look at me as such. I think it's a good definition.
To me, sexy just means something like attractive, to the other sexe, probably, but still, I don't have a problem with it. I agree with some of the others here that it's all about balance. I love to dress 'sexy', with high heels, skirts (not too short), tights and well-fitting garments in general. But I always want to feel classy too at the same time. I never, ever felt like people treated me less serious because I looked sexy and feminine. I guess it never ever came to my mind that that would be possible. I think that plays a big part in it too. When you look sexy, but confident and capable at the same time, there doesn't have to be a problem.
I think sexy does become a problem when it gets 'raunchy' (is that the right word? I had to use the translator to get it
). Too much cleavage, skirts too short, trousers too tight…. I think we all can imagine that. But still, even with a look like that, I have seen women pull it off. Just because they radiated that they knew what they were talking about in their line of work.
I wonder though.. do you think there is a difference in what is perceived as 'done' and 'not done' in the USA or Europe? Because I noticed before that many times, on blogs by people from the USA, that certain garments were perceived as 'too much to really wear, to work, or parties, etc', when I thought I'd see those kind of garments in all kinds of occasions around here. Maybe we see 'sexy' and 'suitable on the workfloor' completely different too…
I'd have to put a disclaimer on "cleavage". As someone with rather big boobs, it can be nearly impossible to find outfits that show no cleavage whatsoever without resorting to a turtleneck (and I'd rather show cleavage than look weak-chinned). And as far as "big boobs" go, I'm only a 38D and there are others out there far bigger, and the reality is, in most big boobed cases there is no obscuring them so as to not have them be a feature at all. Cleavage is often just a fact of life if you have big boobs and are trying to confine them into the fitted, woven fabrics that typically encompass a "business" wardrobe. I definitely disagree with hanging out, sloppy cleavage, cuz that connotes wanting sexual attention or bad judgement of fit, neither of which will weigh in your favor professionally, or really, anywhere.
I get my panties in a twist whenever I hear of people obscuring their figures for the work place. Women have curvy figures. They also work. They will be curvy at the work place, and really the only way to prevent that from happening is have women work from home, or have them drape themselves in swathes of fabric.
I think my problem is with using the word "sexy." Why not say "attractive" or "confident" or "glamorous" for something like the "Sexy secretary" look? Why does it all have to go back to being sexually appealing? Someone (that's her name!) made a good point: you would NEVER hear men discussing how "sexy" to be at work. It's just not an issue for them. Why is it such a huge, omnipresent issue for women?
I guess I am just going to come out and say it: the word "sexy" is probably my least favourite word on the planet. I don't know, perhaps it is so over-exposed a term that it has come to mean nothing to me. I am truly at a loss trying to define what "sexy" means to me. On the one hand, it has connotations that could potentially link it to things "erotic", but on the other, your connection to "confident" seems plausible too. I think Deborah is making an excellent point in bringing up perception. That's what it really comes down to.
From the practical standpoint, I agree with your list of no-nos for workplace. Having said that, I have trouble with associating the word "sexy" with the list – which is, of course, just about semantics. There are things that are generally considered (in)appropriate, but what the correlation is to sex, well, I guess it comes down to perceptions again.
Oh I don't know. This is a really confusing topic! How we see ourselves and the ones around us is such a complicated jungle of learned cultural norms mixed up with our own private worlds and our attempts to fight the system.
So I've decided to do away with your # 2 no-no Halter tops today. Granted I get why its on your list of no-nos, BUT if you wear a halter top in an unexpected fashion, well then its ok. :-p (Wearing this + cardigan today: http://lawschoolfashionista.blogspot.com/2009/11/closet-shopping.html )
Hmm it sounds like you used "sexy secretary" to describe a slightly retro feminine look, and "sexy" to describe a state of mind induced from wearing flattering clothes and accessories and how this can make a person feel more confident, charismatic, and alluring–not necessarily sexually alluring, but just a happier, more self-assured disposition in general that makes the person attractive to members of both sexes. I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling that way in the workplace!
I love the issue of perception that others have brought up in these comments. I've been at my company long enough to feel comfortable with my managers and colleagues, and many of them know about my blog and my interest in fashion. If I show up to work in a pretty dress and heels, they'll ask if I'm going to a function or an event after work. I feel safe wearing what I want to work, but within reason–nothing too revealing and definitely no cleavage!
I think one of the more important things is to make sure the clothes fit right. A mini skirt can be cute on some people, but if it's too tight and pulls in all the wrong places it's just not sexy…then again I guess i should say I don't find it sexy. I imagine sexy is different things to different people and what one person likes another might hate.
I think women need to be more confident. You can look good, be sexy and still be killer in the business realm.
I am happy to hear your thoughts on this after reading all of the comments on the original post, Sal!
I agree with you that for me sexy = confident. However,I think they can be confused and when I feel confident, I don't always feel sexy. Today, I feel very confident in my outfit: it fits well, I am dressed professionally, and I am wearing a pair of really cute heels. I look good and feel confident. I would not, however, ever get dressed for work with the goal of being "sexy". In my mind, that's just crossing a line which isn't acceptable.
I guess I feel that the intent of what you're wearing has more to do with whether or not it's appropriate than how it's perceived.
Sal, I laughed out loud when I read the part about JUICY on your sweatpants butt.
It was ironic that when I was reading this there were these provocatively smiling women advertised in the sidebar next to the post. Was that on purpose?
Sal, here's a twist on sexy. There are clothes I wear to the workplace that are "Mad Men" inspired yet I don't feel like I'm crossing the boundary between professional and sexy, mainly because I'm in my mid 40's (but trim & fit), rectangular in body shape (not curvy at all!) and small busted. However, I feel a bit too sexy wearing that same pencil skirt/blouse to church because the skirt is form-fitting and the outfit is shapely, even though I'm not showing any more skin than the lady who wears a full skirt. Especially when I pair it with 3" heels, I feel like I need to tone it down.
Anybody else feel this way?
Anonymous(2): Eeek! No, not at all. Those are Google ads and they read the content of the site and feed "appropriate" ads into that frame. I have been trying to weed out all of the weird/inappropriate ads as best I can, but they keep popping up! I'm going to keep at it for a while, and if I just can't get those ads Already Pretty-friendly, I'll pull them.
When I first did Google ads, all the self-love posts somehow triggered a slew of mail order bride ads. Yoiks.
Oooohh, I missed the first post. I'll have to go back and read it!
i know exactly what you mean and intended to convey…but there's always someone who can find controversy in a simple statement.
how about just 'sexy lady' then people will be fine.
xoxo alison
I think knowing the difference between appropriate and inappropriate will always come down to personal judgment, based on:
1. Wearing fairly conservative clothes at first (button-up shirt and khakis with low heels),
2. Watching the people at work to see what they wear, and
3. Modifying what you wear to somewhere in the middle of that range.
Being in the middle of the pack can be really helpful. Also, complaints from others, no matter what you believe motivated those complaints, are a huge red flag–not necessarily about your dressing, but about how you fit in with your coworkers at that institution. My mom sent me a copy of Office Politics when I got my first TAship, and it's been incredibly useful. (The bottom line is that interactions are rarely about what the employee thinks they're about.) Dressing style, while it can signal that you either do or don't understand your company's climate, can also be a handy excuse for a boss who wants to get rid of you for some other reason–and in that case, just changing it won't do you much good.
Your list is a good one, though. Some people who work in my little hometown can get away with halter tops and the like, but not people here in the big town/small city where I go to school. (Or flip flops. Dear God. Flip-flops to work? Might as well make a sign that says "Have not yet incorporated cultural norms.")
"But even if my personal version of the sexy secretary doesn't read as sexy to most people, it feels sexy to me and that's the point."
I agree completely, Sal. This topic certainly pushes people's buttons, but ultimately it's about each individual's definition of the term.
Elissa makes a wonderful Socratic point: Women have curves. Women work. Therefore, women have curves at work. They also have curves at home, at the grocery store, in the airport, at the conference, at the school play. It's simply part of our existence. The curves are not the problem. Letting the curves hang out in unflattering, ill-fitting, and trashy clothes is the problem, and is probably what has given "sexy secretary" its bad name. We need to be able to separate the strictly sartorial aspect of the term from its mysogynist origins in the office politics and policies of the '50s and '60s, and once we do that we can embrace term for what it has become: a celebration of confidence, femininity, and beautiful clothes!
Today I'm wearing a fitted crewneck sweater, a long necklace, a pencil skirt, a wide belt at my waist, black tights and high-heeled oxfords. I work for a conservative accounting firm and my look today is completely office-appropriate. I am covered from neck to toe and yet I feel totally confident, curvy, capable and, yes, sexy.
I kind of love you for this post. I used to work in an office, and I remember a co-worker of mine wore a pair of sweatpants with the word MEOW on the bottom – I thought it was outrageous. It just seems like an invitation for harrassment. :/
I understand completely when you say that being sexy to you is feeling confident and beautiful- not necessarily having others consider you sexy. Sexy is about what one feels inside. That kind of aura you get when you're wearing a nice piece of clothing or feel extra-good that day.
Your no-nos are also right on the mark.
Hmmmmm. Perceptions about what sexy is here are key. I once had a colleague who constantly complained about another colleague because she thought this woman dressed too sexily for the classroom and the seminar room. The colleague she was complaining about frequently wore tops that revealed cleavage. The colleague who was complaining frequently wore miniskirts (with and without tights) and high heeled boots.
I personally don't like to wear miniskirts or shirts that reveal much cleavage in the workplace, which in my case is the college classroom.
And I never, ever want words on my ass.
I agree with your rules, but I think sheer hose should be allowed, if anybody even wears those anymore.
The retro-office look you describe is what I used to wear in my office job back in the last century.
Now that I work in a gym, I can't offer much of an opinion on what people should wear in their cubes, but I certainly have opinions about what people should wear at the gym. Or not wear, as the case may be.
Kristophine posted:
"Being in the middle of the pack can be really helpful. Also, complaints from others, no matter what you believe motivated those complaints, are a huge red flag–not necessarily about your dressing, but about how you fit in with your coworkers at that institution. My mom sent me a copy of Office Politics when I got my first TAship, and it's been incredibly useful. (The bottom line is that interactions are rarely about what the employee thinks they're about.) Dressing style, while it can signal that you either do or don't understand your company's climate, can also be a handy excuse for a boss who wants to get rid of you for some other reason–and in that case, just changing it won't do you much good."
Interesting, and very pertinent. I do believe that the complaint against my outfit was at least partially motivated by professional jealousy (I just wrangled a huge climb up the ladder) and perhaps by body-image jealousy as well (let's just say I have a youthful, slim body type, and the women who complained about me…don't). So it could be that there is definitely a lot more going on than meets the eye, so to speak. As for the "hurting me professionally" bit, I suppose in a lot of professions this could be true, however in my profession it is next to impossible to fire someone (especially someone who is very competent at their job), and I have no designs on climbing the ladder much higher, so I'm really not all that worried. When it comes down to it, I think these women have an "old dames club" going on. If they think they're supporting the cause of empowering women by cutting younger women down…well, I guess they aren't quite the feminists they might fancy themselves to be. Personally, I would rather concentrate on being a kind person with integrity (one who doesn't act in a passive-aggressive manner) than push some kind of false feminism with a "holier than thou" attitude.
Interestingly enough, it seems to have gotten around the rumour mill and factionalized my school a bit; I've seen more female colleagues dressing sexier, and other colleagues have gone out of their way to say they like the way I dress, that I'm being myself, and that being comfortable with who I am is a good role model for my students. Overwhelmingly, I think most of my colleagues support me, like what I do, and know that what I do matters just as much as what I wear.
Exposed undergarments is definitely inappropriate.
When I was student teaching, there was one of the other student teachers who always dressed nicely as long as she was standing up. Unfortunately, her pants were so low cut that when she sat or bent over her underwear were on display.
One day some of the students in the class next door were overheard while lined up going to the lunchroom making guesses on what colour or pattern her underwear would be that day. At this school the teachers sat with their students at lunch and this student teacher often sat with her back to this class.
Somehow her exposed underwear undermined her credibility with the other teachers (professionals – not students). Many wondered that if she didn't realize that her underwear was showing, what else might occur without her notice?
Having had my married boss make a pass at married me several years ago, this is something I think about whenever I dress for the office. I still try to dress as an individual, but don't want to give the "wrong idea". Unfortunately, with the cleavage thing…when you have boobs some shirts just show cleavage. I try to be mindful of it, though.
" Cedar said…
I think my problem is with using the word "sexy." Why not say "attractive" or "confident" or "glamorous" for something like the "Sexy secretary" look? Why does it all have to go back to being sexually appealing? Someone (that's her name!) made a good point: you would NEVER hear men discussing how "sexy" to be at work. It's just not an issue for them. Why is it such a huge, omnipresent issue for women?"
Absolutely!
I think I have an issue with you identifying 'sexy' with 'confident and beautiful'. I think the latter is appropriate in almost all situations (I am sure there would be some workplaces / some situations in which you'd want to downplay beauty, but think these would be pretty rare) whereas whether being a bit 'sexy' is appropriate in a workplace is in my opinion too badly defined to be properly answerable.
In short: it depends on your workplace, hugely.
Longer answer: What kind of work do you do? What kind of city / town / region do you do it in? What kind of position are you in wrt seniority? How well do you get on with your colleagues in general? Do you interact with the public? Do you interact with professional clients? Do you interact with children? Are you a woman in a male-dominated field? Do you do lots of field-work / lab-work which affects what you can wear? Have you received unwanted sexual comments / harassment at your workplace in the past? Have other women received such comments in the past?
I really truly honestly think that you can't answer this question without considering AT LEAST that many factors. And given that everybody's going to be in a different situation … well, that makes answering the question difficult.
(But from what you've told us, Sal, of what your job entails and what it's like, I think all your outfits are perfectly appropriate
)
Jingle Bella, Cedar, Someone: I don't see how the definition of "glamorous" or "attractive" is any more cut-and-dried than the definition of "sexy." All of these terms are subjective, and each of us has our own ideas about what they mean. If I want to feel sexy, I will, and by my own definition. It's not something I run around shouting from the rooftops anyway, it's a private feeling, as I've outlined in this post.
That said, I agree that the question of sexiness in the workplace is not to be taken lightly, and Jingle Bella's questions are all good ones. They're also questions that women (and men) should ask themselves when they dress for work, regardless of the sexiness consideration. Work-appropriate garb is also subjective, and hopefully workers are aware of their own situational parameters.
As for men not thinking about how sexy or not-sexy their workplace garb may appear, how often would you guess that men think about "dressing sexy" at all? The men I know deal with sexy in very different terms, seldom in terms of dress. And while I get that a woman who gives too much weight to dressing sexily may be influenced by societal and patriarchal forces, I don't believe it's always so insidious. Many women are perfectly capable of making the call on their own. I am a happily married woman who works in an office mainly peopled by WOMEN in their 40s and 50s, and I enjoy injecting my own breed of sexiness into my office wear. I'm not some mindless drone, following the edicts of horny men. I'm doing what makes me feel good, confident, strong.
There are certainly women who dress sexy at work because they feel they must to nab a man, or who use their bodies for power plays, or who just do it and have no idea why. But not all women do this. In fact, my experience leads me to believe that most women don't. So I wouldn't necessarily agree that this is an omnipresent issue for women, that of how sexy/not-sexy to dress at the office. It is unfair that women should even have to consider these matters, that how we dress can put us in danger of harassment, that certain garments or cuts may lower levels of respect irregardless of our smarts and qualifications. But I think that discussions like these are what will lead women to think more carefully about their choices, and the repercussions those choices may have. That's my hope, anyway.
Well, I know I'm kind of late for this discussion, but after reading people winning and b*tch about stereotypes and semantics it didn't take long to realize what the problem is. Many people need to understand that there is a difference between "SEXY" AND "SLUTTY". Modesty aside I think that the clarification should end the heated aspect of the discussion.
I also noticed that many of the offended must have an inferiority complex if they feel threatened by a good looking co-worker or by what others may think of their appearance. How people perceive you sometimes have absolutely nothing to do with what you wear, confidence is sexy and some women have it in spades. No matter what they wear they look sexy and that does not make them sexual objects. However, some women exhibit their assets like if in an auction they don't look sexy at all.
Recently at work I was accused of looking too "fashiony" The lady said: "You may want to tone it down a little bit" she advised. When I inquired as of why, she said "This is a professional environment, you want to look boring." Needless to say I was appalled that this woman felt that it was unprofessional that I looked too good.
Before anyone jumps to conclusions what I was wearing was perfectly suitable for a professional environment. It was a black, knee length, turtle neck dress with an over-long cardigan on top and a killer pair of shoes. Perfect example that perception has nothing to do with reality. Bottom line, wear what makes you feel good and comfortable and wear it with confidence that is the best kind of sexy.
Danielle: Sexy and slutty are relative terms. What one woman finds slutty, another may find merely sexy. Which is exactly how heated discussions arise and unexpected reprimands get issued.
I certainly agree that some women are more naturally sexy no matter what they wear. But telling people that just figuring out where the sexy/slutty line resides won't solve anything. That line is different depending on who is being asked.
Furthermore, this blog is a place of respectful discussion. I encourage my readers to express themselves fully and passionately, even when I don't personally agree with what they are saying. If you feel like people are needlessly whining and complaining, why are you wasting your time reading the comments?