It recently dawned on me that any statement of solidarity will, by definition, be exclusionary. If I say, "Brunettes rule!" I am implying that non-brunettes ... rule-not. That might not be my intention, but it is undeniably lurking there in the subtext. It can be empowering to feel comradeship with others through common goals, struggles, and traits. And yet if a slogan that unites simultaneously divides, it cancels itself out. Right?
Andrea and several others recently expressed concern over the slogan, "Real women have curves," pointing out that it implies non-curvy women are inherently inferior. This statement obliquely declares that non-curvy women aren't as awesome as curvaceous ones. Here is a slogan that - to my knowledge - was created in response to feelings of inferiority amongst curvy women ... and now that same slogan may be creating feelings of inferiority amongst the non-curvy.
I am notorious for my improper use of the concept of "irony,"* but fairly certain this is a deeply ironic little situation.
Now, most statements about "real women" get my hackles up regardless. Because shit, who gets to define what constitutes genuine womanhood as opposed to false, crappy, sup-par womanhood? Despite being a curvy woman who is working to convince her fellow curve-havers that we are just as gorgeous and desirable as the Cameron Diazes of the world, I never much liked this slogan myself.
And yet the idea that statements of solidarity are ALL double-edged blades troubles me. As someone who prefers to be as all-encompassing and universally-considerate as possible at all times, I balk at the idea that my personal excitement over a shared struggle could insult someone living outside that struggle. Maybe that's why I shun traditional activism: I just don't have the stomach for it.
(Wow. Vacillate much, Sal?)
What do you, my contemplative and astute readers, think of the slogan, "Real women have curves?" Did anyone see the movie of the same name, and if so what were your reactions? Do you think that similar expressions of solidarity are potentially harmful and should be used sparingly, or not at all? Or is a little division healthy and normal? Can't make everyone happy all the time, after all ... tell me your thoughts, won't you?
Image courtesy Powderruns.
*ALL I can ever think of is "The Gift of the Magi." Is this situation ironic? I don't flippin' know. No one's selling her hair or buying any combs!
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70 comments:
That saying has always bothered me a bit, only because it does imply that women who aren't "curvy" are somehow not equal to women who possess curves. As someone who has friends that are on both sides of the spectrum (and as a gal who would be considered in contemporary fashion as "curvy"), I think it's a little insensitive at the very best to imply that women who aren't amply endowed aren't up to snuff with the rest of us! Seriously: can't we just all forget size and weight? We're all women, we all are "real", and different. And I think that is the quality that inherently makes us real--not our size or shape! I wish someone would put this sad, tired and somewhat bigoted saying to rest... *sigh*
*Steps off soapbox*
Any statement celebrating something is going to exclude.
But you can pick up a fashion magazine and see lots of beautiful women who are sans curves, and when that seems to be the celebrated ideal, it's nice to have another faction celebrating those of us who are too curvy for fashion mags and don't look good in the must-have crisp white button-up shirt (because it GAPES at the breasts) or the "essential" belted, double-breasted trench (because it makes me look like a shapeless sausage).
I don't think it's necessary to say "real women" have curves, because that's sort of silly, since real women come in all shapes and sizes. But to celebrate curves and make women feel that they are beautiful even if they don't have a model's figure is a good thing to this busty Latina brunette, who doesn't see a lot of women in fashion or the media to who she can remotely relate, at least physically.
I adored the movie. However, as a skinny mini for most of my life, I abhor the whole "real women have curves" statement. Growing up I wasn't skinny enough or tall enough to model, and I wasn't curvy either. What I was left with was feeling as though I was in a sub-par no-man's land. The first thing I think of whenever I hear that expression is that really touching scene in Erin Brockovich. One of her clients in the famous case asks her something akin to: "I don't have any breasts or ovaries. Am I still a woman?" Kills me every time.
That phrase has bothered me, too, and many others that I think are co-opted by marketing to promote "self-improvement" products, whether they be cosmetics or weight loss supplements. The language of self-acceptance has been twisted this way, since the underlying message is "if you buy this product, you can accept yourself". The examples I'm most thinking about are Weight Watchers' co-opting the language of size acceptance ("Diets don't work") to promote their diet, and Olay's "Love the skin you're in" to sell their "age-defying" products.
I saw the film "Real Women Have Curves" and it was delightful, and I'm sure its author (a lovely Latina) had some of brown-eyed grrl's sentiments as she did, nothing more.
Hmmmm... that statement always just implied to me that what we see in ads is not representative of the majority of women -every women has something she wishes were different. so I guess those non-curvy women would feel strange about this statement-but given that, I'd rather be on that other side if given the choice...
Another woman with tiny little curves weighing in--I never felt slighted by the phrase "real women have curves" even though I knew I didn't, probably wouldn't ever, and in fact, only did during pregnancy, have "curves."
The fact is, no matter how little you are (and this is coming from a 32AA), you've still got SOME sort of curves as a woman, and that's what they're talking about. No one said "ONLY LARGE-CURVED LADIES."
Honestly, I've never had a problem with it, because I think the skinny girls of the world get enough praise through the fact images of them are constantly shoved down our collective throats. I'm not saying I don't like skinny people just because they're skinny. And I also realize that many mean do report that, in real life, they prefer curvy women to those that look like prepubescent boys-- but maybe that's my point. Women are not supposed to look like young boys, and nowadays, that seems to be the boobless, buttless, hipless aesthetic being encouraged. I think if you're curvy and you want to be proud of it and believe-- as I do-- that you embody what an ideal woman should truly look like, you have every right to wield this phrase with pride, especially when you consider all the criticism of curvy women in the media and among women themselves.
I've always dismissed the "real women have curves" saying as silly and just forgot about it... I don't consider myself curvy because I don't have any hips... although I do have big boobs - so those are curvy? I give up! I guess you really can't make everyone happy...
Hmm, something like "Beauty lies in our diversity" - that might be as close as you can get to making everyone happy!
I just see red flags any time any statement starts with REAL women or REAL men.... that inevitable delves into culturally enforced gender roles, which in my opinion, more often than not, are restrictive, harmful, and prescriptive (rather than descriptive). S.
S.: I agree. I mean, when people get TOO hung up on word choice it can get counterproductive, but deeming a quality as definitive of "real" womanhood or manhood is just divisive and potentially damaging.
Futurelint: I LOVE your phrase as an alternative. Diversity IS where beauty resides, and that's a message that I can get behind.
I'm in the same boat as most of you. How can any woman not be a REAL one?!?? And as a very short, relatively skinny woman (with more and more well-placed curves as I grow up), I did always feel excluded by this designation. But I think that it's also important to create a sense of solidarity for a body type that has been traditionally and persistently left out by mainstream society as a manifestation of femininity. That being said, it's dangerous to imply that whole groups of women are FAKE women. (I guess I'm vacillating a bit too, Sal!)
I think the phrase "Real Women Have Curves" is just as guilty of engendering the category of the Other as the concept that a real woman should be thin to be attractive. Either way, someone doesn't fit the norm and gets excluded from power and privelige. The statement seems subversive on the surface, but really it is guilty of reproducing existing norms of power. Why one's femininity should be judged on her appearance needs to be examined further.
I'm one of those girls who feels hurt by the phrase (but never says anything about it) because I have the WRONG kind of curves -- flat bust, no waist, no hips, big thighs and rear. The whole concept is that it's ok to have curves, but they better be the right kind of curves by which everyone means T and A. It doesn't help that both of my BFFs have the right kind of bodies.
I guess I just see it as another way that men put their expectations on women. I've never heard a woman say she thought another woman needed more curves.
Definitely problematic and far too generalised. Women are all different sizes and singling out 'curvy' women discriminates those who are naturally un-curvy and have more athletic shaped bodies.
I like where the phrase came from- after being knocked over the head with Kate Moss-like waifs (or any model for that matter- Giselle is not curvy), I liked that women could feel like they should embrace their curves. But I am not a curvy lady- nor am I a Cameron Diaz (I'm about a foot too short and am decidedly brunette). The phrase ultimately leaves people like me out in the cold. So I'm not a "real woman" because I'm not curvy, but I'm not a model-like tall stick either. Real women have it all- and that's that.
Hi there-If you are naturally thin, then this statement is quite detrimental. I would love curves, but alas, I don't have them, but I consider myself a real woman!!
I am with Gillian and Isleen on this one: I *was* the Cameron Diaz type as a teen (5'9", 117 lbs.) until I hit 20 and then BAM! my body realized it couldn't take McDonald's and chocolate bars 4x a week and magically make it disappear! I looked athletic and fit. Now I am 5'9" and 150 lbs. and while I'm still considered "slim," by no means do I have the right curves that I feel is implied by this phrase. (And by the "right" curves, I'm referring to Beyonce, Marilyn Monroe, Carmen Electra, Salma Hayek, etc.) So I no longer fit into the much-despised "waif" category, but nor does my 34A bust and 30 waist allow me entrance into the "curvy" category. I'm stuck in "nothing fits properly" land, where my broad shoulders and wide ribs now need a medium/large, but my bustline requires a small/medium. Let's just say swimsuit shopping is my most DESPISED activity. And my body shape and image is something I think about daily, as I'm sure most women do.
So in short, I don't like this phrase at all, and I agree when Isleen says it's another slogan to sway not only women's, but MEN'S, opinions of what a "real" woman should look like. Blech.
I've never had a problem with it...a little perhaps on the word;REAL. Women comes from the same 'factory' but in different packages...oH dear it's the product designer in me that's talking again!
I like futurelint's phrase too! S.
Here's the thing: I'm not thin. But I'm not curvy either. "Curvy" doesn't mean "bigger than a size 2"--it means having curves. I have small breasts, and narrow hips, along with a short waist and big rib cage, which means I will never have an hourglass figure, or even a pear figure. I fit into neither category of "attractive" (and most thin models/actresses already are curvy; they just have smaller breasts and hips in proportion to their body). I wish I could just ignore the whole "Real women have curves" thing and laugh it off, but it does hurt. I already feel awkward and masculine in my skin; does knowing that some other women don't think of me as a "real" woman affect me? Of course it does.
I have seen the movie and I really enjoyed it. I think that by real the movie meant average American, but average always sounds so awful and not a very good title for a film "The Average American Woman Has Curves" Bleh. It doesn't mean to imply that any curves are right or wrong I think. However I am and always have been curvy even when I was a size 2. I could never have been a waif so this definitely wouldn't hurt my feelings. I don't know if the phrase was around before the movie was though maybe it would be different if I could separate it from the movie in my mind. I do know that things like that can be harmful to women so I can see how it could be offensive to thin women. When I was about 7 I wrote a song about how I wanted to be blonde with blue eyes, freckles, and big boobs. It made my mom really upset and at the time I didn't understand why. When I heard the cassette that I had made when I was older it totally shocked me. Anyway, I don't really think that exclusionary statements like that are necessary, but I don't think that it is the statements themselves that are harmful. Maybe people should add too to the end of them like real women have curves too and brunettes rule too.
So, I'm a 34A with a booty..what does that mean? I'm half curvy or half "real"? I've never really thought about the saying, but every time I heard it I always celebrated women who were curvier than me. I have a huge family and 6 girl cousins about my age and each one of them has at least a C cup. When it's time for some healthy family banter they will with out a doubt go after the fact that I'm the only one who didn't get the boob gene. Now, if that's the only thing that they have on me does that mean that they are actually insecure about their bodies? I do occasionally hear them say how they sometimes hate their boobs because with low cut tops they look like they belong on Sunset strip.
Another thing, some of my friends have straight hair (I have wavy) and they envy that. I guess because I can have wavy hair and I can also straighten it. So maybe curvy is always preferred, but not necessarily mandatory.
"but leave it to humans to choose a criteria that we can't change" - Andy Grammer
I loved the movie Real Women Have Curves, but I'm kind of ambivalent about the phrase. It's a rallying point and it embraces a non-mainstream body type and celebrates it, to be sure. However, as others have pointed out, it kind of excludes those of us who aren't tall waifs or super-curvy.
How about we co-opt the phrase? Because I can see both sides of the argument (some people like it, some don't, etc.) Instead of "Real women have curves", make it more personal:
THIS real woman has curves!
And it's true - I do. I love them, but it doesn't make me hate on the chicks who naturally have no curves.
But in regards to the stick thin models we all see in the fashion mags... many if not all of them are not naturally stick thin - they are doing bad bad things to themselves to get to this artificial idea of thin. So when I hear the phrase "real women have curves", it doesn't make me think of stick vs. curves, but more about healthy women vs. the women who are really hurting themselves trying to fit in to the cult of thinness. All women have curves - even the girls who are naturally waif-ish. Wee little curves, but they are there! But super model thin is not NATURAL thin, and it makes me sad when, after all the starving themselves and airbrush touchups and ALL that, their looks are spun as "natural" and achievable. If I had a small army of touchup artists and assholes watching what I was eating every second, I too would look like a stick thin model!
*here ends the ramble*
Real women come in assorted shapes -- what we AREN'T (except with rare exceptions whom I'm going to declare responsible for their own self-esteem) is skinny all over but with huge breasts (because if they're biological, they're made of FAT, and you have to have FAT in other places to have it there, too).
That's fundamentally the PhotoShop/surgery "ideal" that these slogans are designed to combat.
I agree with Casey's comment completely ... I understand how the saying came about, but I think all women are 'real' women, and we shouldn't make any size or shape feel lesser than any other. I have a curvy friend who delights in telling me that she is more of a woman than me because she has big boobs, and a very slim, petite friend who is consistently told she looks like a twelve-year-old boy. Both shapes (and everything in between) have their own struggles and insecurities ... and these situations can easily be reversed (bigger girl self-conscious about her weight, skinny girl making fun of someone larger). We should stick together as women and enjoy the camaraderie that comes with that, rather than creating division between the ranks.
Okay, off soapbox now! :D
Yeah, I don't like it. It seems like the kind of thing where one group feels inferior and tries to make themselves feel better by attacking others - "You flat-chested narrow-hipped societally-approved ladies aren't REAL women". The problem is not the figure type, but the societal approval. I've lost a lot of weight, people tell me I look 'great' - I don't like it, I don't think I do (no more or less than anyone else, anyway).
Just to chime in again...it's funny to hear about what shape a woman is, and then to hear what she perceives as the "ideal."
For so many years, especially in high school, I idealized the super thin girls with impossibly small hips and smallish breasts...and they typically had straight, blonde hair.
As I mentioned, I'm (half) Latina, petite, and a definite hourglass. You'd think I would have been celebrating that shape!! But it's only in the past few years that I've become truly happy with my round bottom and curly hair...and I still wish my breasts were slightly smaller, though that's mostly because big boobs can be uncomfortable.
Hi, readership.
I LOVE YOU.
You are the most thoughtful, articulate, fascinating group of people in the known universe and if anyone tells you otherwise, you send them to ME.
Thank you for contributing your diverse and contemplative responses to this post. I look forward to reading even more of them as the day goes on!
I kinda hate that phrase, and I hate the "real women" expression too, because hell, i don't have curves, never did, probably never will unless I get pregnant, and I have always resented feeling sub-woman because I don't have big boobs or a big butt. And yeah, as a teen especially, I felt less womanly because our society says you need big tits to be a hot, desirable woman. Wasn't until I got to college that I realized how false that was! Men, at least, are attracted to anything with nipples and (won't go there). I was confused, to say the least. In conclusion, I guess we can't be all inclusive, but we should acknowledge that no matter who you are, you're going to have some issues, so the big girl/thin girl struggle that we have going against ourselves needs to end. The End. :)
I agree, I can't stand it! I have curves, does that make me a real woman? What if I still feel and act like a teen, with reason? What is wrong with being a perfectly healthy, curveless woman?
Hi Sal,
I think at the end of the day it really is about how women come in all shapes and sizes. Curvy, stick-thin, slim, athletic, tall, average, short, old, young, middle-aged. Pear-shaped, apple, large breasts, small breasts, wide hips, narrow hips. Hourglass or not.
I think it is simply that all women are real. And we all possess different qualities that we can find beauty in. And if we think we are beautiful, and are happy with ourselves, it is possible to appreciate the beauty in others without wanting it for ourselves.
"For a woman's worth is still
and always will be greater
than the sum of all her parts."
(the last line to an old poem I once wrote about a woman who lost her breasts to cancer and tattooed a butterfly over her scars)
xoxo
i've never taken the phrase in such a literal way, but more of a state of mind. like if you're a real woman and embrace whatever body you have, that's what counts.
See, now, I always liked the statement "real women have curves" because I saw it as empowering the unempowered -- women who aren't a modelesque size 0. It never occurred to me that it might be offending those who ARE a modelesque size 0.
When I first started reading arguments against the "real women ..." statement, my hackles raised. I felt that this was a powerful statement for the women who are told daily that they are not beautiful, that they do not fit the ideal, that they are just plain ugly -- simply because their hips are rounded and don't have their iliac crest jutting through their skin.
Women's magazines, billboards, men, women: all perpetuate the ideal body as skinny and waif-like. Saying "real women have curves", to me, meant "curvy women are beautiful, too!" When women (it was mostly women who raised the argument against the phrase) started insisting that the statement was hurtful and exclusionary, I felt their argument didn't hold much water. It was like asking why there isn't a white history month when we celebrate black history month. I totally understand that this is a slightly reductio ad absurdum approach to arguing for the catchphrase "real women have curves" but I honestly felt that when aggressively thin, gamine body types were seen as Beautiful with a capital B, and thicker women were Unacceptable with a capital U, to argue against something that dared go against the grain was just as offensive.
I've since changed my mind a bit; I can totally see why the phrase is problematic, and it's definitely an issue of semantics rather than intent. The intent is beautiful and so are all women. I think that we should take a page out Christina Aguilera's book: real women come in all shapes and sizes and we are, each one of us, beautiful no matter what they say.
I think the underlying message is that natural women are beautiful. The statement is saying 'real women' have curves because they own their bodies, they eat and don't try to strive for the ideal slim figure. If you have it naturally then yay for you but I think the statement is having a dig at people who starve themselves not people who are naturally slim. Also I freakin HATE being called curvy. And healthy. All I hear is FAT FAT FAT. Lets just not talk about it okay? Focus on something else! :-)
My response is somewhat of a cross between VooDooQueen and amanda. When I first heard "Real Women Have Curves" I thought, "hey now! Just a minute..." When I thought about it, I knew that they *meant* what amanda is talking about - when you're talking about the disempowered, you don't really need to speak up for the empowered. I got it, I get it, and I'm happy if it helps people.
I don't have any problem with Olay's "Love the skin you're in" - partly because I LOVE their total effects moisturizer and partly because I've seen their TV ad showing real, old, wrinkled, baggy, fat, thin, young, and colorful women. That statement is meant to be inclusive and I find it so, along the lines of "if you've got it, flaunt it" whatever the "it" may be. I thought it was a pretty positive way to sell their product - treat yourself well because you're loveable. (You may disagree with their defn of treat yourself well, of course.)
Unlike some, I often find women are the harshest critics of other women, unless they make an effort not to be. Guys do tend to gravitate to pretty girls when they aren't thinking hard, but find the hook to get them talking if you're not classically pretty and you'll find many of them are glad for any fun woman to be with them.
I vote "RWHC" as better than nothing, but I still think the phrase is sloppy and unfinished. The "Real" sets my hackles up. I don't think it should be disallowed - we shouldn't let perfection get in the way of doing good - but it can be improved on. Like VDQ's "This Real Woman has Curves" - implying that there are many ways to be "real woman" and she's proud as hell to be one. Or "Real Women May Have Curves" on a slippery when wet type roadsign, or "Real, Curvy, Women ...[more here]..." Anything that pulls it from "we are/you aren't" to "we're highlighting the greatness of this aspect today". I was a little surprised more people didn't offer alternatives, but now that I've tried it, it's really hard!
This discussion reminds me of a great Cosy Sheridan song
http://www.geocities.com/butterfly_tara_rose/chasingthewindmusictlg.html
with bits of chorus:
"you could be thinner
if you could get taller...
if you go out where they say go in
it's a losing game
you don't wanna win"
Worth checking out.
Thanks for opening your blog for this discussion, Sal!
Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that curveless women aren't "real", but I do think that us curvy ladies could use a more flattering maxim. Because "woman" is inherently the "ugly" version of "lady"... "ladies" are viewed as gamine, "women" are maternal. You don't have to be somebody's mom to have curves. In any case, I really don't think that girls without curves should feel too terribly being left out of the club. They get to look good with clothes on, we get to look good with clothes off.
Every woman should consider that they are real woman!
Even though they don't have curves..
Just like Sharon says..;D
All of the woman should be proud on who they are and what they have naturally.;D
Cheers.=)
My friend M and I, being thin with boyish figures, have often thought of giving up on femininity and cross-dressing, because we feel that we can't compete with curvier, prettier girls.
So yes, I am against the statement, because my chromosomes are XX, no matter what my body is like.
I've been pondering your post quite literally all day...My final summation is thus:
the statement is not so much to exclude those who are un-curvacious, though it does, but to rally against the cry of our culture that says one much be waif-thin to be a beautiful, attractive, sexy woman. With that guise, I strongly support such a minority-supported statement.
This is an interesting topic for me to read about, as a guy. There are plenty of "Real Men" slogans for us, but never have I felt that any of those statements were directed at me.
No "real men...ride a Harley, hunt, play hockey" statements will ever make me feel like less of a man. To me those are just statements of Look How Awesome I Am! and really are not directed to me.
However, it is curious that I have never heard a Real Men statement in regards to bodies. If they exist, I'm sure they mention body flaws--real men got bellies, for instance.
I think what is meant by the Real Women Have Curves statement is that women who have curves accept and are happy to have curves and the statement ends there.
People with different body types are equally invited to make their own equivalent statements.
There's room for everyone's statement.
As a follow-up thought, it's a way for full-figured women to reclaim the empowerment that is stolen from them by our society's claim that thin equals beauty...
alright. i'll go now. i promise. :)
(as you can see, your post has quite insighted my thought process...:)
I couldn't agree with you more. Ive never liked that phrase, but never thought much about it. Now that you've brought this opinion to light, I really--like I said--couldn't agree more! Plus, "curvy" is such a blanket statement... even if we're perhaps of normal weight or slightly overweight, we don't always have those desirable curve to which that phrase refers (hips, butt, boobs)..
for instance, "curvy" jeans at the gap are not for my figure. nor are the vogue/elle/whatever fashion spreads for "curvy" women. this is because in my case, the curves are all centered on the belly and the 'curvy' they're showing does not include a gigantic belly.
Anyway, great blog! Am subscribing.
Hmmm...I'm not very curvy, but that statement doesn't really bother me. It could be b/c I think super skinny, model, curveless bodies have been in vogue for way too long. Curves should come back!
I've always hated the "real woman" thing. It seems to imply that certain women are therefore imaginary. Annoying.
Real women have XX chromosomes - that's as far as I'm going on this subject!
There are no non-offensive statements about womens bodies. We are compared and judged, approved or discarded based on our bodies.
Of course people will be insecure and misinterpret what can be misinterpreted.
The tagline is actually "Real women take chances, have flaws, embrace life"
So it could also mean "real women have thin lips and small mouths, Real women have nasio labial lines which havent been filled with sythetic pufferuppers, real women have short legs and long torsos, real women have back bosoms, and knee bosoms (that poke out under too tight shorts) real women have toe captains (second toe longer than Big Toe staging a toe coup)
real women have cankles, real women have "insert whatever physical feature is not currently in fashion here _______"
The idea even our most famous and admired can be airbrushed into Elle the Body Sleekness at the whim of a magazine art director is what gives this film this title. I wouldn't take it personally, but then I have a big arse and thankyou ladies and gentlemen, that is currently in fashion.
xx
Was there a ramble here?!lol
Btw,I'm with "Cupcakes and Cashmere and Summer".=)
Every woman should be proud on what they have and what was given to them by god.because if you embrace that belief,you should be a real,"real woman".=)
And the size and weight"or should i say having a curves of a woman is not the basis of being a "Real woman..
That's it..
Peace out..;D
I actually quite liked this movie. I feel both types of women are indeed, women, but I can understand the point the movie was trying to make...
...and once again, I ask us all to go up a level and QUESTION why we're even engaging in this conversation.
What will it take to get past the notion that women's bodies are the single most important thing about us?
Would men be having a debate about what type of body qualifies them for cheers or jeers?
I HATE the woman-as-body game. It is objectifying and energy-draining. Does anyone else feel like this issue was manufactured to sucker us into self-hate over a qualification we are all greater than anyway?
I refuse to play the self-rating game. I have more curves than I need, and so what...they are IRRELEVANT to who I am except where *I* choose to use them. And I choose NOT to make my body the currency I exchange with my world.
Someone: I hear what you're saying, but the fact is that issues surrounding women's bodies do exist, and NOT discussing them won't help us overcome them. This is a style and body image blog, so there will be a lot of discussion about body image in this space. The reason we're discussing body image issues at this level instead of asking why they exist at all is that insight can be gained and understanding unlocked at EVERY level of discussion. And while I'm interested in why the issues exist and are perpetuated, I'm also interested in the breadth of those issues, and how people feel about them, and what we can do to protect ourselves from them.
I totally understand your frustration about the amount attention is paid to female body shapes, but wonder what alternative you're offering to open discussion about ways to empower ourselves despite that potentially undue attention. I and many others have found that thoughtful examination of our own struggles can actually lead to less struggling. We may not be able to change what society thinks and does, but we can change how we REACT to it.
Additionally, I think that bodies ARE important in defining our identities. They are certainly not the single most important thing, and they are certainly not the only thing ... but they are a contributor. I've struggled for years to accept that I even HAVE a body, fought against my desire to just be a brain in a jar - someone who is revered for intelligence and wit and creativity, but whose body is invisible. When I finally accepted that I do have a body, and that it contributes to my identity, I felt more present, and whole, and aware of the world around me. I also started to take better care of my body, and gained interest in how best to flatter it, and that spawned my interest in style.
And here we are.
What will it take to get us beyond believing our bodies are the single most defining thing about us? I don't know. But that's why we're talking about it.
oh, so interesting. i wanted to wait to comment so i could see what others had to say--and boy! as a very curvy girl who has often felt so pointedly NOT IDEAL, i take it as a woohoo for hourglasses! but by the same token, i can see how other body shapes would not like the statement (as i don't really appreciate rail-thin models constantly touted as perfection by the media).
but also, i think it is good to talk about bodies and image and to figure out a healthy perspective. and it's fun. i like being a girl and i feel like talking about stuff like this is a major perk.
How about "it's ok to be curvy" or something like that? Anytime you say "real" anything, you are, by definition, implying that something else is "not real". If you are a woman, you get to be a woman whether you have curves or not. The tag line is inappropriate in that it doesn't lift us all up.
I wish that we could each just be happy with ourselves. Why aren't we? magazines are covered with women of all one body type...thin. Thats fine. Would it kill someone to include other body types modeling in their magazines? I would buy that magazine.
I have always kind of liked the phrase, but it's because I liked the movie. I don't think it has a chance at all of making skinny women less accepted by society, so let's move on.
Just a comment - my weight yo-yos. My observation is that when I'm at my thinnest, I get a lot of attention from women who say I look so great, they're envious, how did I lose the weight, etc.
When I'm heavier, I get more attention from men.
That's the truth.
Basically the idea behind the sentiment is fine but the saying is crap. How about just a plain "Curves are Beautiful" or "Embrace Your Curves". Pep-talk language with the rivalry.
Some people may see me and think skinny, while I think I have plenty curves to admire; it's all relative.
I understand why so many women embrace that phrase (real women have curves). It is because so much hatred and discrimination has become acceptable towards women who aren't slender and delicate. It has become a way for curvy women to claim and defend their feminine worth.
However, we must be careful not to further divide ourselves and create more tension. Slender women are real women, too. As are short women, tall women, hairy women, bald women, healthy women, sick women, and any other kind of "woman" you can think of. Or at least they have the ability to be -- real womanhood, I believe, is a part of the woman's spirit, and can manifest itself in many different ways. :)
i'm not considered a "curvy" woman, i guess, but i can see where that saying generated from. i've always admired curvy woman and think they look sexier and, yes, more womanly. that saying personally doesn't offend me cuz it's just a saying. it's opinion, not fact.
I'm kind of ambivalent about that saying. I hate that it excludes women who DON'T have curves but as someone who is surrounded by stick-thin girls I find myself using it as a bit of a mantra. What a useless comment...
oh, & I've always thought that pretty much veryone has curves SOMEWHERE on their body, so the saying is kind of redundant.
As a woman of not so many curves, I can't take the curvy side of the story simply because I'm not there too often (every now and then, with a new pregnancy, I gain the necessary curves to sustain it). But I think every declaration is defamatory if you look at things from the (wrong) perspective.
I have friends who are really sensitive about the skin color issue. No matter what you say/do, something still looks potentially offending to them. It's like they're permanently hunting for flaws, something that they could point in to the offensive direction. I truly believe this happens with skinny/curvy phrases like "real women have curves". It's all nonsense, a psy-mambo-jumbo-tantra meant to bring out some positivity to every category, physical or not, of women out there. Real women show off their ribs it's not too good of a slogan, now is it?
Let's not forget that marketing can point in so many directions, but they all lead to consumerism. So when they average the population (women or men) and draw a weight line that's way above the skinny, they can't come up with a skinny-favoring tag line, can they?
Oh, I was thinking, why don't you write a book, Sal? It's so suiting! I wanted to say that few weeks ago, I feared you might take it the wrong way, but here I am, taking my chances! Write a book, girl! You know how to!
(umm... you've suppressed the link/commentator id...)
I'm with you, Sal. I shun activism as well for the very same reasons. There just aren't many one-liners that are true for all situations and offend no one. Best maybe to keep one's mouth shut, have fewer opinions, etc., which is kind of not the American way. And boring. Etc.
Re: real women have curves--well, you're right, every statement has to be understood in its context, which was to make us curve-havers feel better. How about "real women come in all shapes and sizes?"
At the end of the day, every slogan or bumper sticker is just some person's opinion, or maybe a ya-hoo's opinion.
How about we just say 'All women are real women', because dude, unless they are fembots or pre-op trannies, um all women are real. Even the ones with a few plastic bits or bits chopped off/out.
Real women have vaginas??
Shannon...I was just about to step in to say that! Lol...I'm glad somebody did!
I loved all the opinions here! I agree with many who spoke before me that we shouldn't confuse the term "curves" with either a woman's size or her womanhood. Women also come in variations like thin and curvy or large and shapeless. Weather we aesthetically like their bodies or not has nothing to do with their womanhood. Or anything else for that matter.
I think simply saying "you're gorgeous" would suffice...
Real women refuse to be categorised.
Personally, I've always envied and admired women with curves, but I hate that slogan.
Maybe it's just because I myself have absolutely no curves at all, and I can tell you: I'm not skinny. I guess according to that slogan, I'm not a real woman since I'm not "skinny" or "curvy".
I wouldn't be offended if the slogan was just "Women have curves.". However, the "real" just bothers me
I agree. As a petite woman who has to work at body image just as much as the rest of us, that comment has always been a discouragement to me. I can't convert myself into a woman of curves, just as a curvy woman can't decrease her frame or completely alter her build. That slogan is not truly teaching women to accept that we come in "all shapes and sizes."
I know that's it been some time since you have posted this particular entry, but I guess I wanted to leave my two cents about the whole "real woman have curves" statement.
As little as I resemble it, I have a TON of Hispanic Blood (apart from my hair and eyes, you could never tell I'm more white than most white people), but I have been so "blessed" to inherit several of my ancestors' traits; one of the top being the curves.
I'm not overweight, but I'm by no means skinny either. I'm average BMI wise, but there is no denying that my hips and my thighs and, even though they aren't huge they are definitely FULL, my breasts are very prominent.
I've struggled with not falling into eating disorders for years, though I admit I'm struggling horridly right now with disordered eating, and even though I lose weight quickly and keep it off, I still have those damned curves and to be perfectly honest, I think the whole "real woman have curves" was a statement made by someone who wanted to try and boost the ego of the people who had them. I don't think it was meant to hurt the feelings or the image of women who don't, but rather an attempt to try and accept the fact that they are who they are. Perhaps even trying to convince everyone that "shit happens, your shit happens to be in the form of a curvy body, deal with it and smile".
If that made any sense.
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